ILA Podcast

Appreciative Reflections on the Leadership of Jacinda Ardern

Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leadership Podcast. Episode 164: Dr. Suze Wilson & Dr. Brad Jackson - Appreciative Reflections on the Leadership of Jacinda Ardern. Listen Now. The Official Podcast of the International Leadership Association

with Professors Suze Wilson & Brad Jackson


Professors Suze Wilson & Brad Jackson of New Zealand Aotearoa reflect on PM Jacinda Ardern’s leadership of their country and her recent resignation.

Quotes From This Episode

“Few of us can ever grasp just how unrelentingly demanding and difficult leading a country actually is. Especially in times of crisis and with our modern media and online environment, every statement and every move a leader makes is subject to extensive scrutiny and commentary.” – Suze Wilson

“The awful phrase that always haunts me in leadership is ‘we get the leaders we deserve.’ How do we create more sophisticated, more critical consumers of leadership? ” – Brad Jackson

About Dr. Suze Wilson

Dr. Suze Wilson,  is a Senior Lecturer in the School of Management at Massey University. She is passionate about all things leadership along with an abiding interest in how we can make organizations both effective for external stakeholders and enjoyable places to work for employees.

Her doctoral research examined why and how it has become normalized in recent decades to equate “leadership” with grandiose expectations of “transformation,” “vision,” and “charisma.” She argues these ideas, when examined closely, actually create undesirable pressures on leaders, grant them excessive powers, and rely on the problematic assumption that “followers” are inherently inadequate. She is interested in theorizing and practicing leadership in ways that are more inclusive and humble.

About Dr. Brad Jackson

Dr. Brad Jackson joined Waikato Management School as Associate Dean Strategic Engagement in May 2020. He currently serves as MBA Director and Professor of Leadership and Governance and is the Programme Director for the Community Enterprise Leadership Foundation Elevate program.

Jackson has published seven books — Management Gurus and Management Fashions; The Hero Manager; Organisational Behaviour in New Zealand; A Very Short, Fairly Interesting and Reasonably Cheap Book About Studying Leadership; Demystifying Business Celebrity; Revitalising Leadership; and The Board as the Nexus Between Leadership and Governance and Responsible Leadership in Corporate Governance. He also co-edited the Sage Handbook of Leadership and Major Works in Leadership. Brad is a former co-editor of the journal, Leadership, and vice-chair of the Akina Foundation, Toi Whakaari: NZ Drama School, and the International Leadership Association.

Host Scott J. Allen

Scott Allen

Scott J. Allen, Ph.D., is the Standard Products—Dr. James S. Reid Chair in Management at John Carroll University. He is an associate professor and teaches courses in leadership, management skills, and executive communication. He is also a communications coach, consultant, author, podcast host, and entrepreneur. For almost two decades, he’s worked with clients to improve their leadership and communication skills. Learn more about Scott here.

About Phronesis

Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders offers a smart, fast-paced discussion on all things leadership. Scott and his expert guests cover timely, relevant topics and incorporate practical tips designed to help you make a difference in how you lead and live. Phronesis is the official podcast of the International Leadership Association.